Are you struggling with hormonal imbalances and health issues? Are you ready to feel better but not sure where to turn?
If so, this episode of The Hormone Prescription Podcast is for you!
In this episode, host Dr. Kyrin Dunston welcomes Dr. Carolyn Messere, a former colon and rectal surgeon who had a drastic awakening about the truth of her role as a physician that transformed her health, her life, and career. Her journey speaks volumes about essential tasks in life that women must overcome to heal and achieve the brilliant health that is their birthright. She supports busy professionals to help them have energy, and better moods at a healthy body. In addition, in 2015, she became aware of the healing power of indigenous plant and animal medicines and psychedelics and became the medical director for a plant medicine group in Peru.
In this episode, you will learn about:
-What could indigenous plant and animal medicines and psychedelics do for you and your health in midlife?
-How can psychedelics help heal hormonal imbalances?
-What are the risks and benefits of using psychedelics?
-Where to find more info about psychedelics
If you are struggling with hormonal imbalances or other health issues and are interested in exploring psychedelics as a treatment option, this episode is for you!
So grab a cup of tea and join us for this enlightening conversation with Dr. Carolyn Messere.
[01:05] Back to another episode of the hormone prescription with Dr. Kyrin. I'm so grateful that you are choosing to spend this time with me. I have something very interesting for you today. Some of you have reached out on social media with questions about plant and animal medicines, indigenous ones, and psychedelics. You've heard about all the research that's being done and the new indications for plant and animal medicines and some psychedelics. And you're wanting to know my opinion and experience, and I'm wanting to share that with you today. So that's exactly what we're gonna dive into my guest today is a, a colleague and friend who has a lot of experience in this realm. She actually was the medical director, a plant medicine group in Peru, where they had healing retreats for people with autoimmune and other diseases, and she saw some miraculous things happen. And so it's become a part of the practice that she personally uses and uses with her patients.
[02:07] I'll tell you a little bit about her and then will get started. Dr. Carolyn Messere is a former colon and rectal surgeon who had a drastic awakening about the truth of her role as a physician that transformed her health, her life and career. Her journey speaks volumes about essential tasks in life that women must overcome to heal and achieve the brilliant health that is their birthright. She supports busy professionals to help them have energy, better moods at a healthy body. In addition, in 2015, she became aware of the healing power of indigenous plant and animal medicines and psychedelics and became the medical director for a plant medicine group in Peru. There, she organized healing retreats for people with autoimmune diseases, Crohn's disease, autoimmune thyroiditis, and chronic fatigue, and working with a group of Chappo Eros who specialized in plant medicines from the jungles. She witnessed people with miraculous changes and some got better in just six weeks. Welcome Dr. Carolyn Messere.
[03:07] Thank you very excited to be here. It's not often I get the opportunity to talk about this. You know, almost every time we have any kind of get together with the, the mastermind. We always try to, I always try to talk about this kind of stuff, because it is the cutting edge right now with medicine. When you really look at it, and we've been looking at jungle medicine for a really long time, you know, we've tried to find cancer, cures, and all sorts of things like that with jungle medicine. But what we haven't really looked at is the fact that in virtually every advanced society that has ever existed in the world, going all the way back to the beginning, there has been a role for psychedelics. And we are the only ones that don't do it. Americans, you know, really when it comes down to it, the Europeans knew about it.
[03:55] For sure. The Celts knew about it. Certainly the south Americans know about it. The central Americans know about it. The Russians were have, you know, the, the word shaman comes from Russian. So there's been a psychedelic factor in pretty much every religion and every society that has existed. And we are the only ones that have been missing it. And it's not a big surprise that we're depressed. We're anxious, we're sick, we're not healthy. We have autoimmune diseases. You know, all of these things are going on in our, in our society. And it's not that surprising because we're really missing out on that opportunity to have a true spiritual connection.
[04:33] It's amazing. I don't think most people realize that a lot of the medicines that are now commercially available and made by big pharma actually come from plant and animals like anesthesia comes from toad venom. <laugh>, that's where they developed anesthesia from. So every day it's used globally to put people to sleep and it comes from frogs and antibiotics originally came from molds and so big farmers. Yeah.
[05:03] And a lot of medicines came from herbs too, like aspirin.
[05:05] Right. And so big farmers always looking to exploit if you will. Nature's remedies. My question kind of is why don't we just use the natural substances <laugh> and now they're really, they're looking at combo, which comes from toads or frogs. They're looking at, at its elements to boost the immune system. Mm-hmm <affirmative> so why don't I let you tell your story though, of kind of your evolution with medicine. I think it's a natural evolution, don't you? Yeah. You're a basic regular corporate doctor. Mm-hmm <affirmative> you realize we're not really helping anyone. We're doing pill for every ill surgery for every symptom medicine, and then you go searching for something better, either cuz you have health problems or your family members and you just get the sense, we're not helping people. And then you discover a root cause resolution approach. Right. But then at some point don't you think if you're really a seeker of ultimate health and healing that you get to psychedelics?
[06:03] I do. I mean, I think what it really comes down to is that there's really no healing without spiritual healing, you know, when it really comes down to it. And I wanna make sure that people understand that psychedelics aren't only spiritual. I mean there's definite medicinal qualities to them, but the whole point of, of having a relationship with psychedelics is to have a spiritual awakening when it really comes down to it.
[06:30] CA talk a little bit about that because you know, historically, and there really was a, a definite separation of church and state and science and religion several hundred years ago. And how does that affect us? Why, you know, most people who are listening probably haven't don't hear about spirituality and medicine at all ever.
[06:50] Right, right.
[06:51] And it's taboo for some people. So can you help them understand why this is and why you think it's essential?
[06:58] Because I feel like when you look at getting to the root cause of something, there's definitely physical, you know, that's a big part of things and lots of people get exposed to things like toxins. And a lot of these psychedelics can help you to clear toxins out of the system. There's no question that, you know, Iowa does that combo does that. And I began several of them really do help to clear the, to clear that out. So there's no question, I have a physical remedy in these things. However, what we don't have for most of us is we don't really have a true spiritual connection.
[07:49] And if we don't have a connection with some higher power and everybody gets to define to me, personally, everybody gets to define their higher power. I spend some time in 12 step programs. And I would say that one of the things that makes, makes or breaks you in this 12 step program is having a belief in something that is higher than you because let's face it. We're very imperfect as human beings, we're, we're imperfect. And we struggle and get frustrated with our imperfection and having that higher power allows us to see that there's a quote by the Buddha that basically says you can search the entire world over and not find somebody more worthy of love than you yourself.
[08:56] Yeah. That's a beautiful quote. And you know, I think some people hear this and they think, oh, well, you know, I'm this religion, I have a, a connection to something greater than myself. Can you just explain what's the difference between religion and spirituality and right. Yeah.
[09:13] Yeah. I'm not here to convince somebody that not be, you know, not to follow their religion. Absolutely not. I'm here. I think more for the people who are seekers, you know, and many of us are seekers when it really comes down to it. I spent much of my life seeking. I started out Catholic and went through almost every other religion. <laugh>, you know, I dabbled in Catholicism, Episcopalianism Baptist, non-denominational Christianity, Judaism, Buddhism, Hinduism. I've looked at all of it. So I consider myself a seek. And the truth is that I all came back down to the fact that I believed in God and that God was an important part of my life. And how I choose to relate to God is, is maybe what's different. But the God that I had in all of those places was the same.
[10:08] Okay. And so back to the psychedelic medicines, mm-hmm <affirmative> what are they doing? Cause I think a lot of people have an idea when they hear psychedelics, they think of the sixties at Woodstock, people rising and acting crazy and getting high. And so what does that mean? What does psychedelic mean? What's what are they doing?
[10:29] Well, psychedelic basically disconnects you from your brain in some way or another, so that your brain kind of is allowed to imagine greater than what we normally will allow it to do. Cause we, again, we, we're very imperfect and we have a lot of emotions and we have a lot of places in ourselves that we have developed a certain way that we do things right. And we mm-hmm <affirmative> most of those things came from our parents, our grandparents, our teachers, our, our friends, you know, we, by the time we're 30 or 40, we've developed a certain way to be. And we're not even really sure where we got it from. Right. And one of the things about psychedelics is it allows you to kind of disconnect from that and your brain to just kind of do its own thing. And so do you think it's and your body may or may not have a reaction to that? You know, it depends some of the medicines have far more body reaction than others.
[11:28] Do you think it's fair to say that it's basically telling your conscious mind your ego to go sit in a chair and be quiet and letting your subconscious, that really runs the show. Yep. Reveal itself. Do you think that's fair?
[11:42] Well, I think that's a fair thing to say. And you know, I, I think, you know, that's definitely a topic to get into is, is what runs the show. Exactly. And a lot of people spend time trying to figure out how to get rid of your ego. Mm-hmm <affirmative> don't bother you need it. It has to do something right. It's it's not there for nothing. So, you know, I hear a lot of people, especially, you know, I think particularly when I was studying Buddhism, a lot of people there, they strive to get rid of their ego.
[12:28] So it's a little bit, it's maybe sometimes a little over rational or over worried about things. But if you learn to have a relationship with your ego, that allows it to be there when it needs to be there and you don't pay attention to it all the time, that's gonna be a happier life. Mm-hmm <affirmative> so, yeah, mm-hmm <affirmative> so I think, you know, when you're in, when you're in psychedelics, is it even the subconscious? I don't really even know I have a feeling.
[13:21] And also it depends on what those other people are doing. For the most part. I would say that I think there's something that's even deeper. That's like this, I don't know what you would call it. Maybe it's the spiritual mind. You know what I'm saying? Mm-hmm, <affirmative>, it's the part of you that knows that you have always been loved. It's the part of you that knows that you don't have to deserve to be loved. It's the part of you that knows that no matter what you do, no matter who you are, no matter where you came from, you're loved, you're taken care of you're connected to everyone else and to everyone else mm-hmm <affirmative> and something larger than you. Yeah, exactly. We don't have that experience without, I mean, I know people can do it with breathwork. I've seen it. I've done it. I think you can do it with breathwork.
[14:09] I don't think you have to take AUC agenda, have an experience mm-hmm <affirmative> but I find that, you know, certain hallucinogens just really give you that connection. But of course the other thing to look at is for all of us, I think there's always the possibility to have what we call. I don't know. I don't wanna call it a bad trip because I don't think there are any bad trips, but there are, I certainly have had experiences in medicine where I was frightened, where something came up for me, that was very scary for me. But the reality was that I needed to connect to that thing. In order to see that even in that situation, I was loved. It may not happen in the journey.
[15:10] Why do you think that plant medicines and psychedelics could be particularly used for, for women at midlife?
[15:18] I think that's a big change in our lives because we go from being fertile and moms and you know, there's a certain expectation of us in our fertile years. That changes when we get into more of that, that menopausal postmenopausal hair, menopausal stage in life. One of the things that happens too, is that, you know, we've spent most of our lives for good or ill being victims to our ho hormones as women, people make jokes about it, right? Oh, she's on her period. Don't go near her, you know? Oh, she's got PMs. Yeah. We'll just, we'll deal with her next week. You know? And men definitely make fun of us for it, you know? Oh, oh, oh, oh, I saw the tampons in the bathroom. I'm just gonna like go somewhere else for a week. And then we get to this place where we're no longer doing that.
[16:09] Mm-hmm, <affirmative> where there's our rhythm changes in our lives. We no longer have that cycle that goes up and down with our hormones. And we start to get a little bit less worried about things, a little bit less involved in things a little bit less run by our hormones. And then we lose our hormones and we, and we can get pretty moody because we don't have a good balance. So I think that's a great time to really develop redevelop our confidence in ourselves or if we never had it to develop that confidence in ourselves. Right. I think I personally think menopause has been the best thing that ever happened in my life.
[16:51] Because like I said, I was no longer like in that position of having to worry about, did I get my period this month? Is it late? Is it early? Am I having symptoms? Is it, should I worry about that? It's longer than usual or shorter than usual? Or is there some possibility I got pregnant and didn't plan it? You know, like all of that stuff went away and in the beginning it was unpleasant. You know, I'm not gonna say it wasn't unpleasant when, before I figured out how to balance my hormones out and get my, you know, my progesterone levels at an, at a place where I could actually like, not feel too angry all the time. <laugh> cause I think progesterone what's nice about progesterone is it's kind of a feel good hormone if you do it right. I
[17:39] Yeah. The other thing about menopause and midlife is that I don't know, I kind of got to this place. Oprah calls it the it fifties. It's like, you just don't care what people think you're say anymore. And you're like, I'm gonna be myself. I'm gonna do what I wanna do. I'm gonna be who I came here to be. Cuz you know, you don't have forever.
[17:59] Right. And it is kind of a liberating time. But the other thing that I came up against was, well, what is it that you wanna accomplish in this life and why aren't you doing it? What's stopping you. And so that's kind of the other appeal to me of plant medicines. And one of the reasons I decided to start talking about it publicly is because if you go online, I think that there are lots of people interested in these types of technologies, including women at midlife. But if you go online, you think it's all like tech guys in Silicon valley and young people doing it. And all the podcasts that talk about it is like it's guys and young guys and techy guys, and you don't see women at midlife talking about this, but there are lots of us out there using these technologies.
[18:59] Oh absolutely. Yeah. I'm not sure where I would be right now if I hadn't, you know, one of the opportunities that I had when I was in Peru was I got to sit in ceremony every night with a shaman and I didn't drink every night. I didn't take iowaska every night, but I probably did. I probably sat in 20 ceremonies where I drank. And so, and when you do it day after day after day after day, it's a different experience than just coming into it and going, you know, like the first time I did it, it's kind of funny that you say that the first time I did it, I did it with a bunch of Silicon valley guys.
[19:38] It was me and one other woman who wasn't techy from Silicon valley and then the rest of them were guys and they had all done, you know, LSD. And they were like microdosing, which I had never heard of. I didn't even know what microdosing was and you know, so I did, that was my first experience was to spend 10 days in Peru with a bunch of, of Silicon valley guys. And, and it was an interesting experience, but I was definitely the oldest woman there. I was the only person, you know, who was postmenopausal. It was a different experience than I kind of thought it would be.
[20:36] San Pedro. Yeah. Yeah. So what do you think is important? Maybe you could name some of the, talk a little bit about the research that's being done and some of the things the FDA's
[20:46] Getting ready to approve and a little bit about that. So one of the first things is that we now have approval to do research with SIC Ibin, which is the main ingredient in mushrooms. So that's one of the biggest things. If you go back, it's interesting. If you go back to the sixties, they did a lot of research with LSD, LSD, just, you know, it is a psychedelic, but it's not a natural, it was made in a lab. So it's a little bit different than using something that's naturally grown. So, but there was lots and lots and lots of research done.
[21:38] The federal government decided to make psychedelic research illegal. So we went many, many, many, many years before we were allowed to really do anything. And then one of the first ones that was available for research was MDMA. It's also, I think it's XTA C or it's it's at least one of the components in ectasy. So that was one that was allowed to be used in the research laboratories, but only in very distinct places with very, you know, a lot of pre-planning and a lot of approval from the government and all of that kind of stuff. And then now we've got a lot of places that are doing suicide and research.
[22:37] It's not legal. One thing that's also happened is that the, a lot of people have made it a religious requirement for them to be able to do mushrooms or to be able to do peyote mm-hmm <affirmative>. So a lot of people have made it a religious requirement. And so the government's had a hard time with that because technically there, these people aren't wrong about that, that it's been used. I mean, really like I started off at the very beginning of our talk psyche have been used as a spiritual experience in every society from the very beginning except Americans <laugh> except well, except, well the native Americans, the native Americans did. Right, right, right. There's some really good books out there about how, you know, the impact that psychedelics have had on religion.
[23:44] Lots intertwining and references that are veiled and not direct in a lot of religious texts about these medicines.
[23:52] There's a guy, I can't remember the name of the book. I'll, I'll send it to you. There's a guy wrote a whole book about how the Catholic church initially did use psychedelics and then they scrubbed the whole thing clean. They took every reference to it and put it in a vault. And that was the end of it. But the vault is still there and he got access to it cuz it's in the Vatican.
[24:14] So pretty interesting.
[24:15] Definitely share that book. All right. And so the average person, you know, we've got our wonderful midlife women listen to this podcast. They wanna know about balancing their hormone. So I definitely wanna touch on, do these psychedelic medicines relate to hormone balance at all? Is there any benefit to be had regarding hormone balance with psychedelics?
[24:37] I think the answer to that is still to be determined if you look at when, when we were in Peru, it's not just the psychedelics, but there's a lot of other medications and there also there's in Peru. It's interesting. There's way more psychedelics than just iowaska. But very few of them get talked about because iowaska kind of, I think it, it, it got picked up by the, the Silicon valley guys and they made a big thing about it.
[25:265] Any in particular that relate to hormones that you wanna mention. I'm just curious,
[25:30] Not that I really am familiar with. I haven't really seen it. I mean, I do think, I think, again, any of these things that are gonna support your emotional balance and your spiritual balance are gonna support your hormone balance because ultimately the biggest thing that happens to us that can cause real problems with hormone balance is stress and overproduction of cortisol. So anything that's gonna lower your stress make you less worried every day. My sister finds it amusing. Cuz I joke about the fact that many of my patients are what you call the worried well, right? But they are the worried, well, you know, it's a little bit maybe dismissive because their worry is what's contributing to their medical problems. And so when we teach people, you are connected. There is a power higher than you. You are loved, you are taken care of. There is hope for you. There's yeah. Then I think that's the biggest thing is if you get that cortisol level balanced and you start to understand that you don't have to worry about everything, you really don't have to worry about anything. Right. It'd be, if I remember that every single day and I don't right, we don't
[26:46] Right. I think you're so right about the cortisol. And that's what I was thinking. That's how these relate and also giving you this experience of being connected to everyone and everything and something greater than yourself. Mm-hmm <affirmative> because I know I was a terrible worrier and you know, there's this saying, uh, in 12 step that if you don't have a God, then you have to be one. When you think you have to be, God, you try to control everyone and everything all the time. And it's an impossible task and you exhaust yourself and you make yourself crazy and you also don't accept yourself and love yourself. Exactly. And so for me, the, the plant medicines give me, have I had never had that experience.
[28:05] And what I think is interesting about that is that we think that the thing that happens to us at midlife is we lose our, our estrogen.
[28:14] For most of us, we had way too much estrogen to begin with <laugh> so maybe a little less estrogen is good, but the hard thing is we lose progesterone and we lose testosterone.
[28:26] So, and testosterone is like, you're like, go, go, go. I'm the hero. Like I can do this. You know, we can't live without it. And it doesn't occur to us as women. That testosterone is that important to us. But you know, I remember you sitting down and saying to me, I, you know, to me, I just can't even imagine not giving somebody testosterone. If they, you know, if, if their levels are low, just doesn't make sense.
[29:30] Right. I'm just thinking, what do women listening wanna know? Probably some people never even are unaware of the changes that are happening with research and approval and medical indications for these medications. And now that maybe their interest is a little peak. Well, I wonder if any of these could help me or would I get that Dr. Carolyn, how do I find out more? Where would you direct them to find out and get more information on this?
[29:56] So the people who have been doing this kind of stuff for the longest was probably maps and you can look them up pretty easily on the internet and they are training more and more and more people in, in how to work with psychedelics. They started out with MDMA, like I said, that was, you know, kind of the big, that was one of the things that you were allowed to do. And now they're shifting so that they're starting to do some psilocybin, which is like I said, the active ingredient and mushrooms, because what psilocybin has been shown is to help people with depression and anxiety.
[30:45] Yeah. And then also for addiction, some incredible IGA IO, cocaine, and methamphetamine one trip, and they're healed
[30:59] And you know, I do wanna caution people though that it doesn't always happen that way. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. And the other thing is that even if you do get significant change with the first journey, we all have a backslide ability. So it's good to have an option to be able to participate again, because we, the one thing it's really funny, I think from the moment we're born, the thing we forget almost every day is our connection.
[31:44] <laugh> such a good reminder. And just for everyone map stands for multidisciplinary association for psychedelic studies, it's M a PS O R G mm-hmm <affirmative>. And thank you so much for joining us, Dr. Carolyn, where can they find out more about the work that you're doing?
[32:05] I still don't have a website. I'm gonna get that set up really soon. So the best way to find me, I think a lot of times I'm on Facebook, I can be found there. And the other place that you can find me is I'll send you a link from the page for my, um, practice better page, and they can get more information about it there.
[32:30] All right, there you go. Thank you, Dr. Carolyn. Thanks. Thanks for joining us. All right, everybody. Thank you for joining us for another episode of the hormone prescription podcast with Dr. Kirin. I hope you found this information important and interesting, and maybe your interest is Pete. I would definitely check out maps.org for the latest information on these medications, the trials that are underway and, and really the state of the yard of the data on the plant and some animal medicines. And I look forward to seeing you next week and until then peace, love and hormones.
[33:09] Thank you so much for listening. I know that incredible vitality occurs for women over 40. When we learn to speak hormone and balance these vital regulators to create the health and the life that we deserve. If you're enjoying this podcast, I'd love it. If you give me a review and subscribe, it really does help this podcast out so much. You can visit the hormone prescription.com, where we have some free gifts for you, and you can sign up to have a hormone evaluation with me on the podcast to gain clarity into your personal situation until next time, remember, take small steps each day to balance your hormones and watch the wonderful changes in your health that begin to unfold for you. Talk to you soon.
You can follow Dr. Carolyn Messere on her Facebook account for updates and learn more about alternative and holistic health.
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